best players or best formations?

I was going to write bit about the Bolton game after going on Tuesday. However I felt it would probably fall on deaf ears as, the win would be swept aside by the cries of "It was Bolton, they're crap". We're slowly creeping into the agenda phase agin on here whereby most of the contributors and heavy hitters want Bilic out, whatever. If we say we've kept three clean sheets and have cored 7 goals in there games, it gets washed under the carpet again, because last season was crap. I've thought about our first three games too, and call me a happy clapper, but Manu will do most teams at home. Even golden boy Koeman and his £150 million worth of transfers got a hammering. Southampton we clawed back form being 10 men down to 2-2 and were very unlucky with a last minute penalty. None of that was the managers fault. Newcastle was crap, pure and simple. Then this formation and square pegs in round holes. Is Bilic the only manager to do this and why do managers do it? Pocchettino another golden boy darling of media and fans alike, played Son at left wing back last week. Then played Trippier a RB there after he pushed Son upfront. Nobody batted an eyelid and they drew with Swansea at home. Then I thought about my own coaching and what I would do in a game. I mange coach a junior rugby side, obviously a totally different ball game, but I do tend to want all of my best players on the pitch at once. Most games aren't that constrained to designated areas, its not subbuteo! So for me I sit of get why managers do it. Do I play Byram at right back or wing back or do I want Antonio on the pitch? Byron might be a better RB but Antonio's a better player. He wants obviously Carroll, Chico, Arnautovic & Antonio all on the pitch. He wants Hart, Zabaletta and Cresswell on the pitch. He'll want Lanzini when fit on the pitch, that leaves 4 more players to pick. 4 from Noble, Hart, Reid, Collins, Ogbonna, Fonte, Sakho, Fernandes, Ayew and Masuaku. He played 4-4-2 on Tuesday and it looked good in the first half can that work with this group of players?

Dicks is the man's picture

no one batted an eye lid? really? ive seen it all over the press about pochetino losing the plot with his lineup. can you honestly say playing hernandez at left wing is good then?

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7 users have voted.

no but i understand it. who is our left winger? Arnautovic? so if we are constrained to formation we would have to play Arnautovice because he's a netter LW, yet I'd want Hernandez on the pitch because he's a better player

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Dicks is the man's picture

play a 3-5-2 or 4-4-2. simple no? play your best players in their best positions otherwise you cant be surprised when they play crap.

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7 users have voted.

who plays where in a 3-5-2?

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Dicks is the man's picture

if u dont want 3-5-2 go with 4-4-2. arnautovic if on your basis he has to play would have to play left wing in mid five. but are we now suggesting bilic and the board bought arnautovic and hernandez with no clue what formation to use? your theory is it doesnt matter as long as they are all on the field? I dont see any point whatsoever buying a quality goal poacher and then sticking him in an alien position because his usual place is taken?

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7 users have voted.

I think he was probably bought knowing that Carroll will at some stage get injured and miss most of the season. I think 4-4-2 is ok against the likes of Bolton but not with Spurs playing potentially 6 in midfield. Some mangers can, as I've said before, play a formation and buy players to fit that. We as club can't do that. I think we've had to get to a stage whereby we are trying to buy the best and most high profile player we can after the big boys have had their pickings. If Dyche managed West Ham and plays 4-4-2, do you think this forum would be happy with Chris Wood as a signing?

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Dicks is the man's picture

if wood played well? a lot dont like hart but if he starts pulling off great saves? I believe the argument 4-4-2 is no good against spurs etc to be weak imo. fergie dominated with 4-4-2 and competed with bayern, barca etc with it. he also bought to suit it. many would say ronaldo cant be a winger in a 4-4-2 but thats ecactly what he was. leicester beat them all with it two years ago.

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9 users have voted.

if we're comparing Fergie and united with Bilic and West Ham can't see the argument tbh. Fergie could've played any formation with those players they still would've competed and beat west ham week in week out. You're sort of just reinforcing what I believe, that players are more important on the pitch than a rigid formation. The point bout Chris Wood would be can you imagine the reaction on here if we were linked to him? then put in an offer? then signed him? I'm talking about as a signing without having kicked ball. There was, as I've said before, a similar reaction to King and Wilson from Bournemouth at the beginning of last season. Also you an I have debated the player power thing before. If you buy a player of high profile, lots of money, big wages they expect to play, it's how you entice them in. Barcelona have been shoehorning players in for years, Neymar, Suarez and Messi, Real with Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema, now PSG with Neymar, M'Bappe and Cavani. We'd have Rashford all day playing up front for us yet at Manu he has to play wider because they spent £90 mill on Lukaku. if the game was played where nobody got injured or had bad form, we could all pick a starting 11 for most teams, unfortunately in the real world it doesn't pan out like that.

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8 users have voted.
Dicks is the man's picture

jeez predictable 'comparing us to man u' argument. im saying 4-4-2 works in the prem not that we are going to win it. so now players have to play coz they are too good for the club not to? for me its a mess up. if bilic wanted chicho then he should have known how he will set up. if he thought carroll wont play then he should play chicho as his first choice carroll on bench. if he wanted the two together then play them as a pair. all this messing around says hes got no clue.

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mcbikeman's picture

calm down you two your always arguing whats this forum coming to

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Dicks is the man's picture

how dare you argue about our arguing. betty and I are merely discussing.

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As a new manager (which bilic isn't anymore) you look at the players you have and then work out the best most effective team/formation that you can get out of them, regardless of having your "best" players in the team. It's a team game and the best players don't always make the best team. After you have been at a club a few transfer windows you would hope to work towards a formation and team to fit a way you want to play. So for the last couple of years ANYONE bought as a big player and a first teamer should be played in their best position. After all why buy him if you have no need to play him there? E.g if you buy a poacher you have bought him to make trouble around the goal area and score goals. If you are gonna play him away from there why not buy someone who does play there? It's different if they are a squad filler. You don't accomodate good players at this level if they don't fit what you want your team to do. You don't progress that way. You need a clear plan, any player however good he is should be sold if he doesn't fit that plan. Then we buy another player of that quality that does. Otherwise it just holds the team back.

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7 users have voted.

The reality is if he played 442 with Carroll and Chcarito up front on Saturday you'd still want him out so it's a pointless debate.

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9 users have voted.
Dicks is the man's picture

but isnt that just like saying if he goes 5-5-0 with chico in midfield you will find an excuse for him to stay? so why start a 'pointless' debate? are the rules that you can only debate if the poster doesnt want bilic to go now?

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6 users have voted.

True Betty, point being that's how I believe a team with or without bilic should be run. For me I might ease off bilic when he starts playing decent football. And looking like a real team for more than an odd game.

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I think after the start we had you have to go back to basics a bit. Get some points and confidence going before you try and work on how you play

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Dicks is the man's picture

but how can you expect to get some points and confidence if you haven't worked out how to play? this is prem league, not pub league lol. the team should be organised and ready for the start of the season not after 5 games.

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mcbikeman's picture

Bilic is obsessed with having carroll upfront and it affects the balance of the team and makes us very one dimensional because of that...we have had to deal with him being long term injury ever since we got him so signing a player of chicaritos quality and sticking him out wide is crazy but its not the first time or last time he will do it but if we get a spanking tomorrow it will be his last match in charge pretty sure of that.

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Lenuse's picture

Right, before I go any further I want to make it clear that in spite of the way certain people with a knee jerk mentality would have you believe, I have never called for Bilic to be sacked full stop.
However, what I repeatedly stated last season was that he was brought in to do a specific job which was to take us, or at least move us in the direction of the so called “next level” and that on the basis of last season’s performances and more importantly results, added to the way this season has started, that clearly hasn’t happened.
So, Should the club sack the manager? When I look back at all the managers actually dismissed by the club – as opposed to those who resigned - from John Lyall to the present date, procrastination is the most common thread that preceded all of those dismissals, closely followed by rank bad handling of the situation surrounding the sackings by those in the boardroom.
The position the club finished in the old first division after a season of constant struggle – 16th out of 21 with only 6 home wins coupled with some very poor signings – indicated in my view at the time that Lyall’s time had come, but the board hesitated before sanctioning some more very poor, not to mention expensive signings, a year later we were relegated.
The next to be handed a P45 was Redknapp. He had spent extremely poorly especially after Rio Ferdinand had been sold and the board should have vetoed at least 2 of his disastrous and costly transfer deals that season, but they waited until the end of the season when the money had gone before they took what I have to say was probably the wrong decision at that particular point.
Glenn Roeder should have been given no more than a 2 year deal instead of the lucrative contract he was awarded and it would then have been far less costly than we were led to believe it would have been to dismiss him in late November after the 4-1 defeat at Villa with a clear month prior to the window to get someone new in, but once again they hesitated and relegation followed, after which, he should have been laid off on medical grounds but at the risk of repeating myself..........
The Icelandics sacked Pardew at around about the right time, and I feel that the current owners got it about right with Zola, but the unbelievable step of bringing in Avram Grant was only made worse by a). Not sacking him before Christmas b). all but sacking him after Christmas and the complete cock up of the O’Neill affair and the subsequent u-turn, and finally c). The total stupidity of allowing him to remain in situ until the season’s end and the appalling and messy way that his eventual sacking was handled.
Sam Allardyce’s departure was not exactly what i’d call a “sacking”, as to be fair to all concerned, he had done exactly what he was employed to do, and there was it seems, mutual agreement that it was his time to move on.
So that brings me to the current manager, Mr. Bilic, a man who was appointed, as I previously said to do a specific job, a man who I admired as a player and who’s work with the Croatian National side I respected a great deal. But he’s also someone who as far as I am concerned has so far come up short in his achievements with West Ham, so much so that I believe that unless there is a marked improvement in performances and more importantly RESULTS by the end of November, by which time we should have gained at least 12 points from the games we have in that period, he should be moved on in order to give the new man sufficient time to assess his options prior to the window re-opening.
That is my view on which I’ll stand firm, and as a lifelong West Ham fan I will always support tha manager and above all, the team.
So, whether or not you agree with me or if you think he should be sacked now or even if you think he’s the best thing since sliced bread, Bilic is currently the only manager we have and if he’s getting it right then it follows that the team are too, so get behind him and the get behind team and if he’s sacked do the same for the new man as whatever our opinions are it’s not about any individual, it’s about supporting the team. COYI!!!!

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6 users have voted.

Fact is you should choose a formation and style that suits the players at your disposal, orp lay a formation and play the most suited player for each role. Bilic is just shoehorning players in to a formation, and the idea of just putting your best 11 players out is absurd. 'Byram/Zab is a right back but Antonio is a better footballer' Do me a favour, you choose the player who is a right back to play right back not the winger/striker. Under Bilic this has been a constant thing, Antonio and Kouyate at right back, Tomkins at right back, Antonio up front, Hernandez on the wing, Nordveit right back/center back, Fernades wing back, Zabaleta center back list goes on. Fact is 11 players all playing in there correct positions and playing a system that suits them will yeild better results and performances then a cluster fuck mix of the lot.

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Dicks is the man's picture

I agree. very well put sir.

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6 users have voted.

Words i never expected to see dicksie

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Fred, last sentence says it all for me. Cluster fuck, perfect expression to some up the last 15 months at West Ham both off the pitch but most importantly on it! I've said it before bilic is the ONLY manager I have called to be sacked at West Ham. He has the most weird and ridiculous takes on team affairs and our players. It's like he has forgotten a lot of the basics.

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5 users have voted.

I also thought Cluster fuck was the perfect term lmao

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6 users have voted.
burkie's picture

I agree with bikeman above ,he is obsessed with having Carroll up there ,you could see the tension on his boat at playing chic pea instead of him and his relief at shoving chic pea out again and bringing in Carroll ,from the very start you could see chip pea was very happy up there on his own or not ,theres a difference between a striker and a poacher and to me he's one of the best poachers in the world
Its uncanny how he can sniff out goal chances and be there to convert ,i swear he's what we've been lookin for forever ,any manager that would rather play Andy instead with his same old predictable "lump it up to me and I'll try and get the old head on it"doesn't have a clue ,Hernandez is a secret weapon ,a guided missile firing straight into the net of the opposition, hes the 20 a season man that we've been searching the universe for and now we've found him what do we do with him ?shove him out left he'll assist for big Andy ,he will like fuck

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8 users have voted.
Dicks is the man's picture

what annoys me is it shows that Bilic has no clue about system, formation etc. I've said it repeatedly but the evidence is there to see. he told us he's been chasing chick pea for 2 years. he's known about carroll and his options yet now here we are with his dream player 'chick pea' and he decides best to play him wide in a front 3? granted he got it right choosing between one of carroll and pea to start through the middle, but i still don't see how a manager of a top side doesnt have a plan already laid out in his mind when he signs players. this is his 3rd season now, he's not new and having to make do with the players he has, he's had 5 transfer windows to gel a team together. every week now we're getting something different. how on earth are the players going to know what their job is in the side if it changes every week? for goodness sake decide on a system that gets the best out of the best players and stick with it.

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8 users have voted.

Wait until bilic pisses Hernandez off and then we have to sell an unhappy player! Then we will end up renewing Carrolls contract! When bilic arrived he should already have had his formation and plan worked out and now we should be seeing some fruits, and identity on how we play and what bilic is about. (Or maybe we are) half the time I can't see what any particular players instructions are. It's often confusing on how we are suppose to be playing, I'm guessing this confusion is coming from bilic.

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cast iron's picture

When Albert Matawack-who? came on West ham started to create and he put in a smashing coss to Kouate I know one swallow doesn't make a summer but he does look pacey how about if he was put on the wing if Arnie is having an off day or sent off day even, all these amateur pundits me included seem to forget that we had no players on the bench of any calibre now we have 7 half decent players what a lovely position to be in. Most of us can see were Bilic is coming from with most of his subs but u cant please everybody, my mate thought Ayew should have come on for Antonio Like 4 like instead Carrol came on and gave a goal away. As fans, we all wanted the big Man small man situation -you can't blame Bilic for that, and in the end Ayew came on anyway.
But what I dont get is how Oxford is out in Germany and has not had a game and there was a report, that the west ham scouts were out in in Italy looking at a centre back Whats going on if Oxford dont get games then he should be back with Josh Cullen and Reece Burke and playing football in sitting on Munchen Gladbach bench 600 miles away is no good for him He ought to be playing in the championship. somewhere. He had just as much promise as Declan Rice but at the moment he seems to have been sold down the river.

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8 users have voted.
Dicks is the man's picture

I would agree with you but i think most of us want carroll and hernandez in a two not a THREE. it doesnt work. if you want both on then they have to play through the middle together surely. failing that, then you choose one or the other to play central in a 3. to me this is just basic stuff. I'm no top class manager i accept but I'm also not being paid 3 mill plus a year to get the best out of our players. its just so annoying to see hernandez out wide, even the pundits whether they are in the studio or on the commentary keep referring to it as senseless. the thing is he's your goalscorer, the most important position on the field, its ok to play a winger out of position now and then, or a defender etc, but come on, we all know he's our main goal scoring threat. I'm tired of it tbh. manu play rash ford wide sure, but then they have lukaku playing in the centre. it would be like mourinho playing lukaku wide left to play fellaini in the middle.

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7 users have voted.

Tired of it? Perfect expression for me. It might take a revolution to re-ignite my enthusiasm

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