To See Ourselves as Others See Us

I live in a relatively quite part of Somerset and when I was having a swift pint in a village pub, I listened to a conversation between a few lads who were Yeovil Town fans. The conversation was regarding their poor start to the season in the lower reaches of League 2, the topic was the next match and the comment was "its a pity we can't play West Ham as we need an easy game". Ears really atuned the conversation developed into a discussion about our club. The most telling comment which really increased my adrenalin flow is that "West Ham are a joke team with joke owners, joke players, and joke manager". Very upset and extremely pissed and wishing I could relive those days in the Sixties on the old North Bank where those sort of statements led to severe repercussions, then the comments went, "its a shame as the West Ham fans are brilliant and deserve better". Well, what can you say, our entire last season and the start of this encapsulated in a few words by a bunch of piss artists in a pub in Bruton!

Dicks is the man's picture

for me and its sad to say it, we've become a bit of a 'coventry city'. i remember when they were in the prem, everyone fancied playing them, they were a soft touch. played some 'nice football' according to opposition managers like fergie and co, but that compliment just means you give em a soft game, no real effort needed for a win. eventually they went down, and now find themselves playing the likes of yeovil in league 2. my point is that for a long while now we've lacked purpose, lacked a style. i thought under pardew, he created a pacey, hit on the break side with some exciting players…but the zola, grant years took all that away and we went back to this 'nothing' type of football. allardyce came in and straight away he had a design, a method and a philosophy….like him or not, he was appointed to implement that into the team and he did it successfully, limited that the style was at least it was a defined style. then we get bilic and we start over again just like zola and grant, no defined method or game plan or set up. we buy players simply to buy them, not because they fit into the system like bournemouth, burnley etc do, then we get them ala snodgrass and no one has a clue what role he's at the club to fulfil. i really hate this. theres no planning, no method. silva at hull and now watford is a man who knows what he wants to do, he organises the team to play it, he buys players to suit it, wagner is doing the same even on a tight budget, dyche has done it by buying wood to compliment his style. at the moment i watch us and just have no clue what exactly the plan is as to how we intend to go about winning the match and I'm pretty sure bilic doesnt either. i think we are seeing now how glaringly important a strong manager with firm beliefs is for a club. this easy going 'coach' it on the day stuff is rubbish. I'm envious of clubs that are organised properly, even if they are smaller than us or struggling relegation each season, because they know what they want to be doing.

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5 users have voted.

Gonna be devil's advocate here as you would expect. Dyche took Burnley up , then down and then up again. By your standards he would've been sacked after relegation or before, so a new manager would've been at Burnley and who knows where they'd be now? Silva was relegated with Hull, again you'd have sacked him surely if he did that with West Ham? After Bilic needs sacking for losing 3 games? If Bilic wins the next three game does he deserve a 5 year deal? I get your point about purpose and style, but what's Tottenham's style?, Manu Utd's? Everton's? All got great managers, but I'm not sure I could define their style. It's more about the players you have. Against Man U we got ripped apart and Lukaku scores 2. That's what you get for £90 million. The reality is apart from Antonio, Hernandes, Lanzini, Hart and maybe Reid we're a pretty average team that will get average results. We always have been so I don't see the surprise? Apart from '86 I can't really remember a time in my lifetime where this wasn't the case. We had players like Wardy, TC, Mac, Galey and Dev who weren't big names but the gelled well together. I think this is the biggest problem at the club. For all Allardyce's faults ( I was there for the 5-0 drubbing at Ipswich), he did create a club atmosphere, centred around the captain. He came in brought "his " skipper in and "his players". We did look and feel like a team that cared for each other. Sakho isn't going for a meal with Andy Carroll, Mark Noble's best mates in Collison and Tomkins aren't there anymore, we seem a bit soulless. Trying to compete with the big boys, when really we are still a little club. Take Bournemouth, small club, small club mentality. The manager is all about the players and the right environment. They have the luxury of buying players that suit their culture. I remember when Callum King was mooted as a possible signing last season and he was laughed at on here. But he's a good honest decent pro who will work hard. Instead we want "marquee" signings, because the board keep promising them. Well they're doing that because they know they have to appease us because of the move. The whole point of the move was better players, league position etc... so we keep hearing "marquee signings" we don't want the Gray's, King's, Ramirez's we want proven Internationals £40/50 mill plus. It's a vicious circle. Some see the board as greedy etc.. I just think it's more simple than that, they've got the whole thing wrong. I think they've misread the whole situation and are trying to appease the fans, to the extent they end up just BSing us. They'd be better off Imo getting a Howe and bringing through the youngsters, come what may, and progressing slowly. Even a year or two in the chumps is not fatal as some may think, you'd still have 30 odd thousand+ in there. as fans we have to take a deep breath and only but hope. If we do bring new players in, they could be a Mahrez or Payet I think we write off everything too soon. It's gonna be a long season!!!

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7 users have voted.
Dicks is the man's picture

long way off mate. silva took them down? how many games did he have and what resources? so no way would I have sacked him. dyche sacked after bringing them up and down? why? wheres logic with us who didnt go up and down? bilic sacked after 3 games? what about the 38 of last season? he had to get going fast this season after the last one. so im afraid your a bit all over the place mate. you also keep comparing us to man u nd co when its the likes of bournemouth, burnley and wba etc that are doing more than us with less resources. the move remember was to put us a class above those.

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4 users have voted.

I did mention Bournemouth to be fair, have re-read. Silva was appointed January 5th and had 22 games, won 8, drew 3 and lost 11. Last season we finished 11th, with the players we had and the Payet situation that's about where we are mate. Who have WBA signed? I must've missed it, Burnley too? They're selling their best players aren't they? I think everyone on here but me thinks we're better than we are. Lanzini for instance, a nice tidy player, but he's no Coutinho, Hazard or Silva. I think we all get a bit carried away. 3 games in, after 10 games if we're in the same space I'd push the panic button, but I sense that even if we won the next 7 games, people still want a change, but don't really have an idea who for.

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4 users have voted.
Dicks is the man's picture

ok im confused mate. I was discussing the managers, style etc not the signings being made. what I mean is regardless of signings standing, its about buying for your system. burnley example wont go and buy a winger who plays in a mahrez mould as he wudnt fit the hard work, tackle style hes set up there. I do agree its not black and white but our manager seems unable to decide how he wants to play and who to buy to implement it. or are the board buying whoever without his agreement? im not sure we all think we're better than we are, just better than bottom of table and unable to work hard. good discussion. hope you and family all good

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5 users have voted.

all good thanks mate hopefully to you and yours too. Look at us all civilised!! Just a last point for instance Chris Wood, I reckon would score loads of goals at Chelsea, the way they play with big man up front. However they could never sign him because he's not a big player at a big club

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4 users have voted.
Dicks is the man's picture

yeah i know what you mean. the amount of 'wasted' money in the game now is incredible. players being bought not even to sit on your bench but to do nothing for two, three years on massive wages at clubs like chelsea, man c etc. i mean imagine being 3rd choice keeper at any of the big clubs…you're earning millions and never playing, just having a knock around at training. i do agree with you about bilic not knowing what he wants to do, and that was my basic point. even if he stuck to the counter attack ala his first season and bought players to fit that but he reverted to a more 'total football' thing last season. if i were manager, just silly i know but saying, id identify my best players i.e. lanzini, hernandez and antonio and set them up to get the best out of them. i wouldn't play antonio at right back or up front. i know we had injuries but really its no excuse. maybe he's just not good enough and doesnt have the know how. but my point with silva is he got the best out of what he had, and is doing the same so far at watford, same goes for wagner and dyche.

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5 users have voted.

Who doesnt get the praising up of allardyce?imo he was just 1 in a long line of mediocre managers at westham,but people still lord him-why FFS??...he came with massive arrogance,& in his first game in charge had the smirk well & truly rubbed off his boat with a 1 nil home loss to cardiff...we did eventually sneak into the play-offs but lets be honest blackpool were the better side on the day (we were bloody lucky to win!!)...he kept us up for a couple of seasons - so what??his style was terrible & he had more excuses post match than wenger,moanrinho & klopp put together......now i didnt actually have a dig about sam untill the last six months of his tenure- why? because as ive stated he was just another mediocre manager of westham imo...slavs the same ive backed him up to now,but im not bothered one way or the other if he stays or goes...i cant see us getting a top manager in the foreseeable future so we are stuck with the likes of slav,avram grant & big sam im afraid...

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7 users have voted.
Dicks is the man's picture

man u under gaal was possession, under mourinho its robust and more direct. everton style is work in progress imo based on all signings but at southampton it was a fast passing style under koeman, tottenham is high pressing from the front. my opinion anyway. point is the managers know what the trying to do

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6 users have voted.

but you're only mentioning one factor of the game. who do Spurs set up, possession, count attack, fullbacks both up, one back,....? Not having a go at you mate but the point is apart from Allardyce or Guaridola most managers aren't that defined in a particular style. I get sth pint though that Bilic seems not to have a game plan, i.e. sit back and counter or take it to them approach. Tat's what worries me the most. Also there is no settled 11, which most good teams have.

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5 users have voted.

Since the Hernandez signing, the behaviour of the board gives me the jitters. I'm probably over reacting but I keep think Blackpool. We have now created no balance in our team when a couple of injuries set in. The squad is shallow in important areas. Why get rid of so many if we weren't gona replace them?

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5 users have voted.

Red, read Nev's piece on Snodgrass. It's what I said before you need a balance of tier one players i.e. those that should alway start and tier two, those happy to wait for a chance. In my eyes the tier twos should be younger players on less wages. We have too many tier ones on big wages IMO, all expecting to play so it creates a bad feeling around the place. Too many players expecting to start. We probably needed a clean sweep of Snodgrass, Feghouli, Calleri, Nortveidt, Randolph, Sakho and Valencia. Fletcher imo woulve fitted that tier two position but maybe he wasn't good enough

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5 users have voted.

Yeah Betty, I agree about getting in a tier 2 system and type players, sounds logical but we seem to be getting rid of tier one without a plan for tier 2. Bilic doesn't want kids and we need to level off our constant injury crisis to be able to implement a plan for players at whatever stage of tier 2 they are at. I suppose Oxford, Cullen, Burke and quina in bilics eyes are tier 3. Masaku, Collins, fernandes, rice a tier 2. So how can we plan for this with our injury crisis. After all we don't know who we will need. Love to see Holland, seaed, Martinez etc used as fill ins (not all at once) but it doesn't seem to suggest bilic wants that. Jota was mentioned at one time possibly a good tier 2 option. Mirellis probably will regard himself as a tier one whilst the board may think tier 2. In other words it's either kids coming thro, old boys with a season or 2 left or just players who are not good enough anywhere else.

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6 users have voted.

its probably all three mate. I hope that its the youngsters. i like that Rice is getting a chance if gives me hope that he will play youngsters. To be fair Fletcher got a plant of sub appearances and he's fairly young. If we pick up Mirallas and Wilshere today, you have to say that the recruitment this year has been all Premiership with experience, is's what we all cried out for after last year

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6 users have voted, including you.

I hope bilic doesn't ditch rice due to 1 mistake. As for wilshere and mirelles I admire you confidence. Don't expect anyone before 11. Maybe a free in the next week.

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6 users have voted.
moore2come's picture

I think we've seen the last of Rice this season. Reminds me of Oxford when he started against L'Arse. Couple of games later and a roasting by Lukaku and he's not seen on the pitch again. I think Bilic will consign him back to the reserves and persist with some talentless shit in his place. And based on that one mistake by a youngster, the others won't get a look in either

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7 users have voted.
moore 6 legend's picture

I hope not mate,all part of the learning curve,lanzini made a mistake leading to toons 2nd goal,he's just as guilty in that game imo

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11 users have voted.
moore2come's picture

He wasn't hauled off though like Rice and Oxford. How the hell are you supposed to learn if the one mistake you make is punishable by total exclusion?

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11 users have voted.

Sad but true and the perception of us will only probably get worse as we are the laughing stock of the league bar Arsenal. I just read that our current net spend is 4.5 million. This is rediculous and proves there is no ambition to raise this club to a force in the Premier league. The barrow boys will not dip into their pockets. All I expect before the market closes is maybe one or two loanees that will hardly lift our spirits. Looking like a crap season yet again.

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5 users have voted.

careful mate plenty of east Londoners or second generation of east Londoners that are considered barrow boys on here

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6 users have voted.
moore2come's picture

Are we the only club that didn't get any TV money!!!?

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8 users have voted.

No m2, Sullivan had to make his own money, standing on street corners. :-)

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11 users have voted.
moore2come's picture

no wonder we're broke!!!

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7 users have voted.

Had to laugh at the sporting Lisbon mans nick name for our board is " the d*l*o brothers" quality. Anyone know a song for that? I'm sure maybe one will arise on Monday?

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10 users have voted.

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